Cheap Fun: LRA v. FWD

"for Michigan" (formichigan) 02/04/2016 at 15:15 • Filed to: oppinions, modification, fun, honda civic, ford mustang

0

43

Six months ago, I bought my Mazda3 to replace the beater Civic I had been driving. At the time, I rather wanted to keep the car as a project, but my brother-in-law was in desperate need of something to replace his Suzuki Verona, so I let the Civic go.

However, it seems once the mod bug bites, shaking the resulting desire can be rather difficult. Not wanting to risk putting my daily driver out of commission, I have taken to trawling the local CL for a suitable candidate. That search has turned up an interesting dilemma.

As I see it, when it comes to available cars that fit my budget and can be fixed and modified cheaply and easily, there are really only two options available to me: Fox Mustang or 90s Civic.

The Civic

Yea: Familiarity, Easy to Work On, Handling

Nay: Ho Hum Looks, Wrong Wheel Drive

Source.

I had a 98 EX Coupe for only nine months, but I got to know it thoroughly in that time. It was a basket case that I got super cheap and used to get myself on my feet financially. Because I was broke when I bought it, every time something had to be fixed, I did it my self. During that time, I put all new gaskets in the top end, did the timing belt and water pump, and rebuilt the brakes all around, among other things.

Not only do I know my way around the car, it is a pleasure to work on. Unlike my Fiero or my brother’s Firebird, it is evident that the people who designed and built the Civic did so with ease of service in mind. My wrenching experience is limited, but I cannot imagine it gets any better than this.

When it comes to handling, I used to be firmly in the RWD-only camp. My first car was a Fiero because I refused to own a Civic. Then I bought a Civic out of necessity and it upset my automotive worldview. Once I upgraded to a Mazda3 last September, all notions of needing RWD to have fun went out the window. It would still be awesome if my Mazda were RWD, though.

If I go this route, the Del Sol is calling my name. A second car needs no rear seats and owning a car with a targa top is on my to do list.

The Mustang

Yea: RWD, V8, Looks

Nay: Unfamiliar, Handling

Source.

The Mustang is tempting because V8 and RWD.

Thus far, I have owned three cars in the last four years (got my first one August ’13). All three have been I4-powered. It would be fun to have something different this time.

Same goes for drive wheels. As I stated above, I have recently concluded that RWD drive is not required to have fun in a car. But it is fun. The issue here is that gaining RWD means losing decent handling. At least, according to what everyone else says.

See, I have never driven a Mustang. Ridden in a couple New Edge SN95s, but never been behind the wheel. What I have driven is my brother’s ’92 Firebird. The thing is a boat, the steering is awful, and visibility is abysmal. I would rather drive my old Civic.

My opinion of Fox Mustang handling is based on the generally accepted opinion that 3rd-gen F-bodies out-handled Fox Mustangs. If my brother’s Firebird is better than a contemporary Mustang, I would rather not even bother with the Mustang.

In Conclusion

Now some people might say, “But the LRA only matters if you’re going to take it to the track. On the street you’ll never notice the difference.” To which a say, “Baloney. I didn’t have to track the Firebird to realize it was garbage.”

In reality, once I do have a second car, I plan to search out some Autocross/track events and beat the snot out of whatever it is I buy. To me, the Civic seems like the better option for that because it will likely be more forgiving as I learn my way around a track.

Thoughts Oppo?

Tuned-Port-Injected-Rage > for Michigan 02/04/2016 at 15:01

1

Sounds like you need some IROC in your life.

for Michigan > for Michigan 02/04/2016 at 15:16

0

I have been Kinja’d hardcore.

Did I do something wrong? When I published this post, Kinja posted it as having been published three hours earlier. Got automatically bumped to the middle of page two.

wantafuncar > for Michigan 02/04/2016 at 15:19

0

I think the Iroc isn’t a bad idea.

Before you rule out a Mustang (or Camaro), consider this:

Mustangs can handle: http://www.maximummotorsports.com/

Not sure if it is still active, but they used to have a racing series called the Camaro and Mustang challenge.

Sam > for Michigan 02/04/2016 at 15:20

0

You don’t want a Del Slo. They’re terrible cars. My friend in high school had one and it was a nightmare. He replace it with a 5.0 Foxbody and then replaced that with a Celica GT-FOUR.

And the LRA only really matters if you’re hitting bumps on curves under acceleration.

for Michigan > Sam 02/04/2016 at 15:21

0

Back your allegations up with facts, please.

for Michigan > wantafuncar 02/04/2016 at 15:22

0

I know that they can. But I don’t want to have to dump $3000 into a $1500 car to make it drive acceptably.

DrJohannVegas > for Michigan 02/04/2016 at 15:24

1

Yea, this is an odd Kinja default behavior. It sets the post time as whenever the post was started. So, if you edited it a few times, it reverts to the first post time. Just check the scheduled time at the top when posting.

Edit: You can also adjust the post time and update.

for Michigan > for Michigan 02/04/2016 at 15:24

0

Also:

!!! UNKNOWN CONTENT TYPE !!!

Already addressed your last comment.

Sam > for Michigan 02/04/2016 at 15:26

0

Targa tops leaked as they always do, the interior sucked because it’s an econo-car, it was very slow (not even slow car fast, too slow for that), and it also bent a connecting rod and cracked the block at ~180k miles. That was the end of that.

Just get a Miata. Then you don’t have to deal with LRA or a Del Slo.

pfftballer > for Michigan 02/04/2016 at 15:30

0

Mustangs can go around most autocross courses faster than equally prepared Civics. They’re also more fun and make better noises. They also won’t understeer like a riverbarge when properly set up. The Civic will always understeer when you are turning under moderate to max throttle tires can only have so much traction and when you ask them to both steer and provide propulsion they can only give half of their grip to either task.

for Michigan > Sam 02/04/2016 at 15:31

0

Leaks can be fixed, it isn’t difficult.

I had a same-generation Civic with the same engine. Sure it’s slow, but it I don’t really care. And I’d bet the blame for the dead engine lies on your friend or the PO, not the engine itself.

My brother has a Miata. I don’t fit in it comfortably and I’m not even that tall. Plus I have no desire to own a convertible.

for Michigan > Tuned-Port-Injected-Rage 02/04/2016 at 15:33

0

Somewhat tempting, but I’ve worked on my brother’s Firebird several times and it’s even worse than trying to wrench on my Fiero. No interest in an F-body as a DIY’er.

And even if it handles better than my brother’s Firebird, it’s still an F-body so all of the other problems I had with the car are still there.

for Michigan > pfftballer 02/04/2016 at 15:35

0

I’m not really interested in which is faster. I’m interested in what will be more fun to drive without dropping more money than the car is worth into suspension mods.

And how easy it is to work on is a big factor, too. I know the Honda is easy to work on. No clue about the Ford, though.

64Mali > for Michigan 02/04/2016 at 15:39

0

While I have only ever driven a Del-Sol once. I drove it by stealing it from a friend using a Honda Accord key that I jiggled a few times to open the door then start the ignition. Just remember Hondas are easy to steal.

for Michigan > 64Mali 02/04/2016 at 15:40

0

This is true. Never had that problem with my Civic, but I also didn’t own it for very long.

for Michigan > for Michigan 02/04/2016 at 15:42

1

And there’s no way a Civic/Del Sol’s interior is worse than a Fox. My Civic was better inside than both of the SN95s I’ve been in and those were better than my brother’s Firebird.

Tuned-Port-Injected-Rage > for Michigan 02/04/2016 at 15:45

0

Is it really harder than a Fiero? What motor does that Firebird have? That seems pretty crazy.

Fair point there. You can fix the steering to your liking, but I understand. What did you find bad about the visibility?

for Michigan > DrJohannVegas 02/04/2016 at 15:45

0

Tried that and now my post has vanished from Oppo. Oi.

64Mali > for Michigan 02/04/2016 at 15:47

0

Yeah in the Northeast MA,RI,CT,NH there have been a rash of modded Hondas being stolen lately. I routinely see at least one a week across the tuning boards.

DrJohannVegas > for Michigan 02/04/2016 at 15:49

2

It may be “in the future”. Give it a few minutes, check the post time you set.

for Michigan > Tuned-Port-Injected-Rage 02/04/2016 at 15:50

0

His has the 3.1 V6. There’s all kinds of room ahead of the engine, but it’s crammed into the firewall. It’s also a pain to get under the car.

The Fiero can be cramped and I don’t really like working on it, but at least the engine isn’t hiding underneath the firewall.

Driving the Firebird is pretty much the same as the new Camaro, just to a lesser extent. Sills are too high, B pillar is too big. It’s really hard to judge where the ends of the car are too, thanks to the miles of overhang.

for Michigan > DrJohannVegas 02/04/2016 at 15:50

1

I’m waiting patiently. Haha.

EDIT: And there it is! Finally showed up in the right spot.

for Michigan > pfftballer 02/04/2016 at 15:56

0

And I understand the physics of FWD v RWD, but the only RWD cars I’ve driven that out handled my Mazda3 are the Miata and BRZ. The former I don’t like and the latter I can’t afford.

Sweet Trav > for Michigan 02/04/2016 at 15:58

0

You can make a Fox Body handle like a champ.

Check out my buddies Fox Body

You can see all kinds of posts about it on his kinja profile.

https://kinja.com/squirmish

Sweet Trav > for Michigan 02/04/2016 at 16:04

0

No $1500 car drives acceptably.

Tuned-Port-Injected-Rage > for Michigan 02/04/2016 at 17:09

0

Gotcha. Yeah, you’re gonna get that with basically any ‘82 and on F-Body. I didn’t find the accessibility to be absolutely terrible honestly. I will definitely agree on the getting under the car statement, though.

Yeah, drove a few when I was still looking to buy my first car. I didn’t think it was nearly as bad as a 5th gen Camaro, though, because of the big ass hatch glass on the 3rd gen

for Michigan > Tuned-Port-Injected-Rage 02/04/2016 at 17:42

1

That’s why I said to a lesser extent. My Civic kinda spoiled me for uninhibited sight lines.

Chris_K_F drives an FR-Slow > for Michigan 02/04/2016 at 18:21

1

I’ve actually thought a lot about a Foxbody beater car, although I’d likely opt for a 2.3L if I could. Find SVO or Capri turbo parts would make it a fun little car. Plus if you ever blow the motor or break anything, there are plenty of Ford Ranger motors out there for cheap. ;)

Of course this being Oppo, I feel compelled to mention some other options: Miata, CRX, E36, E46, SN95 Mustangs, or the aforementioned Capri (I’ve found some decent deals on them lately). All of which can be had for cheap, and spare parts/aftermarket support are plentiful.

I guess it all depends on what your budget is when it comes down to it. But I really do like the idea of a do all motorsports activities Foxbody. Get a decent little suspension kit, some new wheels, grippy tires, upgraded pads/fluid/lines, and maybe an exhaust system and cams for some more grunt. I really like the idea of having two suspension setups though, one for track/autox and another with a slight lift for rallyx and ice racing. Although that’d be a bit more involved. haha

for Michigan > Chris_K_F drives an FR-Slow 02/04/2016 at 18:46

0

I don’t fit comfortably in a Miata, unfortunately. That and the fact that I don’t really want a convertible means it’s not really an option.

The BMWs are tempting, but I doubt they’re as cheaply maintained or modified as a Civic or Foxstang.

Would love to have a Capri, though. If I get a Fox, I’ll probably hold out for a one. Didn’t know you could get one with a turbo, though! That’s intriguing.

Speaking of Ford Rangers and 2.3s, when I was growing up, my Dad had an 88 Ranger with the engine out of a Turbo Coupe in it. It was sort of the Ford version of the Syclone, which was pretty cool.

Chris_K_F drives an FR-Slow > for Michigan 02/04/2016 at 19:02

0

The SVOs are tougher to find, but basically just the Ford bodied Capri. I think it’d make a super fun car, and especially if it were made into a rally car.

Nice!

for Michigan > Chris_K_F drives an FR-Slow 02/04/2016 at 19:07

0

Seems only appropriate since it was a Turbo RS.

pfftballer > for Michigan 02/04/2016 at 20:14

1

What is this LRA you reference in your original post? Never seen that term used.

Also, bonus:

Sovereign, Purveyor of Coupes > for Michigan 02/04/2016 at 20:38

0

Gaining rwd means losing handling? What? Explain.

for Michigan > Sovereign, Purveyor of Coupes 02/04/2016 at 21:21

0

IMO, EG/EK Civics handle better than Fox Mustangs.

Sovereign, Purveyor of Coupes > for Michigan 02/04/2016 at 21:25

0

While I don’t disagree that’s due to the weight and the suspension, not which wheels drive the vehicle.

for Michigan > pfftballer 02/04/2016 at 21:26

0

+1 for the video. Though the extent of the modifications to that car just proves my point when it comes to Foxes that handle: you have to put as much money under them as they’re worth to make them handle.

LRA = Live Rear Axle. Which is a form of Solid Axle in which the solid axle transmits power as part of the drive train.

for Michigan > Sovereign, Purveyor of Coupes 02/04/2016 at 21:28

0

I never said that drive wheels caused the difference. That’s not the problem. The problem, as you said, is related to weight and suspension design.

My point was that in this comparison, you either get RWD or you get handling. Hence the headline.

Sovereign, Purveyor of Coupes > for Michigan 02/04/2016 at 21:42

0

“The issue here is that gaining RWD means losing decent handling” the way this was worded made me think you were stating rwd was the cause of loss of handling.

pfftballer > for Michigan 02/04/2016 at 21:42

0

Gotcha on Live Rear Axle. I always just called it a solid axle. Regardless don’t be fooled they can be made to handle incredibly well for not too much money. The only big downside to a LRA/SRA is bumpy roads due to the high unsprung weight of the axle and diff assembly. They have an upside too thought as they are preferred by the drag racing community. I’m a moderately old fart and I’ve owned and raced both fast FWD and RWD cars (drag and autocross, also SCCA club SSC club racing) and they can both be fun but I really enjoy a RWD more.

pfftballer > for Michigan 02/04/2016 at 21:46

0

Also forgot to mention. Don’t judge the way any car handles until you look at what tires it’s on. I’m not bullshitting you when I say I used to destroy Corvettes, RX7s etc. in my mostly stock Neon because they were on all shit stock tires and I was on sticky rubber. Handling is at least 60% tires. Sounds ridiculous but it’s true. Bolt some stickies on any random POS and it will blow you mind.

for Michigan > pfftballer 02/04/2016 at 22:03

0

I had Dunlop Direzza DZ102s on 15x7 aluminum wheels when I had my Civic. It was really the only modification I ever made to the car, but it made a huge difference over the stock steelies with all seasons. That really opened my eyes to the difference a good set of tires can make.

Honestly, I think I might benefit from some time at the wheel of a Fox’stang. The Civic was my first manual and I have little experience at the wheel of anything RWD with a stick. I might go with the ’Stang just to remedy that.

pfftballer > for Michigan 02/04/2016 at 22:23

0

I think that’s a good idea. Gas is cheap these days too! Have fun! Test drive it if you buy a manual the manuals in Foxstangs aren’t known for their longevity when beaten hard.

Matthew Phillips > for Michigan 02/04/2016 at 23:23

0

Get the Fox Body, Handling is not as bad at all... Get some good tires on it. it’s cheap to run and cheap to keep running, easy to work on and Right wheel driven. It’s light and I’ve heard the installation of Sub-frame connectors make a huge difference in body rigidity.